info on Sengoku era katateuchi

Hi NMB members

I look once again to the vast knowlage of you all...

Can anyone direct me to me to more info on the Sengoku era (bunmei-tenmon),

shinogi tsukuri, katateuchi, with one handed Nakago.

Thank you

Reuben NihontoSeeker

Rueben -

Seek no more! I am sure if you put "katate-uchi" into the search window you will get lots of good info right here!

-t

I stand educated about NMB.

Reuben

You are talking about the old, good uchigatana.

is it because im new to nihonto you treat me like a fool? i have searched the site before asking its members!!!

I looked at your spelling and nothing comes up at least my spelling brings up some info. if you treat people in a way like you do you get this kind of reaction.

Reuben NihontoSeeker not punk!!

Calm down, Reuben.

I'm sure no offense was meant Reuben....

OK, to get it back on track, away from emotions:

uchigatana is (in most cases a single-handed) sword, which became very popular during the Muromachi period, as more and more battles required fighting on foot. Its predecessor is the shorter uchigatana from the Heian period. The uchigatana was a sashizoe (sword thrust through the belt, as opposed to a tachi, which hung from the belt).

Uchigatana was longer than a koshigatana (hip sword), the latter being the forerunner of the tanto. Earlier uchigatana were hira zukuri.

katate-uchi - I am not sure if this term has to be seen as another name for an uchigatana. Some would say katate-uchi is a shorter, single handed uchigatana.

So, that's in a nut shell.

Wow, WTF was that? Anyhoo, Shibui Swords has a beautiful article about Katete Uchi. Just Google it.

Regards

Art Torano

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the term "katate-uchi" should refer to the blade design without koshirae and "uchigatana" refers to the mounting style with or without blade.

"KATATE-UCHI: "One Handed Fighting Sword" were long swords, like Katana. The Japanese produced this long sword style from the period of Bun-mei (1469) through Ten-mon (1532).

Any sword having a Nagasa of 21 3/4 in. to 25 1/2 in. from those Koto times was not a Wakizashi but the famous Katate-uchi.

Many of the great swords and treasure pieces from this era, by Muramasa to Yozozaemon were made in this Sugata.

Katate-uchi is the predominant style of the Sengoku."

They look kinda like this:

http://www.rkgphotos.com/recent_stuff/t ... f_size.jpg

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

Are you looking some specific information or general information on them? As you've noticed information in English on them is pretty scarce online. The couple threads on this forum and Shibui Swords are pretty much the only ones I'm aware of.

However I have intrest of this type and have some literary sources which contain information about katate-uchi in English.

You will want to check Koto-kantei by Markus Sesko, also Nihonto Koza and Yamanaka Newsletters.

If you have some specific questions in mind I could try to seek the info from my books, but if it's general information you seek I can't help but to provide those above sources for your study.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the term "katate-uchi" should refer to the blade design without koshirae and "uchigatana" refers to the mounting style with or without blade.

Should? Why?

Thank you NMB members who said more then go search for it.

Ive read and have come as far as what most of you all have said, hence i seek more then GO SEARCH FOR IT.

Yes info in english is limited to what there is to know about Sengoku era katateuchi and even fewer pictures as examples.

I think ive found some examples on the JSSC website, Ill ask Fred.

Thank you again NMB members who lead rather then point.

Are you looking some specific information or general information on them? As you've noticed information in English on them is pretty scarce online. The couple threads on this forum and Shibui Swords are pretty much the only ones I'm aware of.

However I have intrest of this type and have some literary sources which contain information about katate-uchi in English.

You will want to check Koto-kantei by Markus Sesko, also Nihonto Koza and Yamanaka Newsletters

_________________

Jussi Ekholm

Tks JussiSan i will look for those books for more study.

Reuben NihontoSeeker

Well as far as I understand.. uchigatana is a koshirae style designed for katate-uchi or blades modified to fit the requirements of that timeframe. Katate-uchi is defined by it's original sugata and time of manufacture. A shortened tachi is not katate-uchi if its in uchigatana koshirae. A shortened tachi is however an uchigatana when worn that way at that time specifically. However- A katate-uchi is still a katate-uchi even when in shirasaya and without needing to be fitted as an uchigatana if it fits the general requirements etc. All of this is my opinion and I have kept in mind that there are always exceptions to the rule.

Reuben,

I'll ask you to be less agressive and more understanding towards members that I personally know to be very helpful, and to have done a lot for the Nihonto community.

Do you know how FEW people actually search the forum before asking something? So telling someone the correct name or an alternative spelling of what they are asking about is actually VERY helpful.

Searching the forum for katate uchi gives this:

search.php?keywords=katate+uchi&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search (5 pages)

Tom meant the best when he assisted you in your query. No-one here knows the knowledge level of people asking questions, so sometimes just the right name is enough to help.

Bear this in mind next time. I won't tolerate people getting in a huff when they don't get everything they ask for.

Brian

Thanks Adam!

Which school is obviously the most representative of this kind of swords? And why?

Jean,

Again going out on a limb here I have to say: Sue-bizen IMO. They produced numerous kazu-uchi mono in this period and since this was the style favoured at that time I would say they have extent examples.

By lack of horses, infantry replaced cavalry. Bizen province accounted for more than 50% of swords produced in this period. Short swords chisa/katate/ uchi katana were born. Now example existed before, particulary at the end of Nambokucho period with hirazukuri blades of this length.

Starting Tenbun, nagasa began to increase and some swords began to have a nagasa superior to 70cm, this length became the standard in Tensho with a standard around 73 cm nagasa.

These swords could be used single handed.

One thing to notice is the evolution of Bizen nakago starting end of 14th century. Beginning of 14th century they became short and stubby introducing the one hand sword wielding.

Thanks Jean!

Reuben! What else do you need to know man? I think we've collaberated an interesting thread and covered most points here on the initial subject. There may be no need to look elsewhere.

Thank you gents for the education.

Reuben

There was a really nice example ( a soshu hiromasa) on shibui website but I don't see it there anymore.

Wow,

I go to work and come home to find a s--t storm caused by my poor post. Seriously Rueben i was trying to help while encouraging your interest. Spoon fed info rarely stays with the recipient.

Had you said you had already searched i would have been more forthcoming. As you have seen the brotherhood here quickly stepped up to answer your questions. I apologize if you could not see my smiling face thru my text. I promise you i am always smiling and always ready to help :D

-t

Hi,

By lack of horses, infantry replaced cavalry.

I strongly disagree with that. A military service was in use in Japan since the 10th century. Those who own a horse where guaranteed as officer class. Footsoldiers where always majority even in the Takeda Shingen army.

Short swords chisa/katate/ uchi katana were born. Now example existed before, particulary at the end of Nambokucho period with hirazukuri blades of this length.

Uchigatana exist since 13th century (and very likely since the late Heian era).

Uchigatana exist since 13th century (and very likely since the late Heian era).

Jacques, although I've often heard this, I can't remember seeing more than a few examples... all hirazukuri, and well made. Considering all the tachi from this time period still in existence, the fact that there are almost no uchigatana (as far as I know) must mean something. Even if most early uchigatana were utilitarian, and seen as simple lower class weapons, you would still think more would exist today if they were at all common. Maybe the lack of examples means the few we see were oddities for their time and didn't really catch on until later, as Jean says.

The Uchigatana 打刀 (lit. "strike-sword") had its predecessors in the Heian period, but it only became standard during the second half of the Muromachi period. “Uchigatana” is usually abbreviated to just “Katana”.

Katate-uchi(gatana) 片手打(刀) means “single-hand Katana” and refers to the length (around 2 Shaku) and mounting with a shorter Tsuka. Higo Koshirae is the most common mounting for this type of sword (e.g. Kazen Koshirae and Nobunaga Koshirae).

We must make the difference between art saber and simple weapon

Clearly you are not making the distinction.

Mere weapons, that's what they were at 90% during the 12th century not Nihonto, and, for this reason how many have survived compare to tachi and kodachi of the same period?

While you are at it, show us the statistics between the ratio cavalry/infantry and nagasa evolution in Kamakura, Nambokucho and Muromachi.

Considering that only 1st class samurai were on horseback, that in Muromachi, firearms were introduced and highly trained troops equipped with them, what were the chances for mounted samurai to survive a charge, taking into account they had "first rate target" printed on their armour and that it is easier to kill horses and then dismounted horsmen than to kill the riders? Reminds me of Kagemusha.

In Muromachi, the heavy toll on high commanding/class samurai due to new strategy with the introduction of firearms have led the battles from cavalry to infantry and this in proportion unseen before.

For people interested here are two extracts from Nakahara's book translated by Paul Martin : Facts and Fundamentals of the Japanese swords.

Talking about early uchi katana

"During this time, people of lower standing (not samurai) also wore blades that were thrust through the sash like a wakizashi so they could be drawn immediately. However, it is very unlikely that these blades were of good quality"

Talking about the disappearance of cavalry in Muromachi period:

"katana are blades around 60cm and over.....This style of swords was popular from the early Muromachi period....Katana generally have less curvature than tachi as a result of the shift from cavalry warfare to large infantry battles."

Now guys, Uncle Jean is leaving in 40 minutes for vacation so fare well and behave yourselves till August :D

The Uchigatana 打刀 (lit. "strike-sword") had its predecessors in the Heian period, but it only became standard during the second half of the Muromachi period. “Uchigatana” is usually abbreviated to just “Katana”.

Katate-uchi(gatana) 片手打(刀) means “single-hand Katana” and refers to the length (around 2 Shaku) and mounting with a shorter Tsuka. Higo Koshirae is the most common mounting for this type of sword (e.g. Kazen Koshirae and Nobunaga Koshirae).

Thank you Guido, well summed up.

Brian

Hi,

Jean,

May i suggest you some reading ?

Samurai by Mitsuo Kure (exists in French idioma)

Weapons & fighting techniques of the SAMURAI WARRIOR 1200-1877AD (written by Thomas D. CONLAN)

Samurai, the world of warrior (Stephen Turnbull)

Ashigaru 1467/1649 (Stephen Turnbull)

Histoire du Japon des origines à la fin de Meiji (Francine Hérail)

Liste non exhaustive.