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 Post subject: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:54 am 
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Jo Jo Saku
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Howdy,

Does anyone of you guys have anything on:

TAMEYASU - [陸奥守橘爲康 mutsu no kami tachibana tameyasu], referred to as being included in; KISHU ISHIDOl, OSAKA KII

http://nihontoclub.com/smiths/TAM190

I have the FUJISHIRO, but need more info.

Books where supposedly oshigata or info exist are here:
1. "Token Bijutsu" (English edition).N.B.T.H.K.#s 1-59. (complete)
2. Shinto Taikan.Iimura Yoshifumi. Vol.s 1 and 2Nihon-To Zuikan: Shinto-Hen.Kataoka. 1977 edition.
3. Nihonto Koza.Homma Kunzan Sato Kanzan.
4. Nihon-To Zuikan: Shinto-Hen.Kataoka. 1984 edition.
5. Newsletter.JSS/US.Volumes 12,3
6. Florida Token Kai Newsletter
7. Zuikan Tomei Soran.Iida Kazuo


Thank you.

/Martin


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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Sai Jo Saku

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Hi Martin,
Here's what I have.

Grey


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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Jo Jo Saku
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Grey,

Thank you. This is what I have too, "hard copy" wise.

Would it be possible for you to make a close-up on "IMG_1055.jpg" the right hand side blade?

What does it say about that specific MEI and blade?

I will insert my MEI and blade accordingly.

NBTHK is giving me a hard time on this and will not give me Hozon nor FAIL.

/Martin


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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:04 pm 
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Jo Jo Saku
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Without the signature the whole sword screams out TAMEYASU.

I hate this... Paper or no paper. NBTHK makes mistakes.

Haggling over attributions is healthy.

Attachment:
IMG_1055.jpg


/Martin


Last edited by spektrat on Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Kokuho
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There are a number of inconsistencies in the signature that might give them pause. I suspect that if the blade was not as well made as it is, they would have simply failed it.

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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Jo Jo Saku
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cabowen wrote:
There are a number of inconsistencies in the signature that might give them pause. I suspect that if the blade was not as well made as it is, they would have simply failed it.


Chris,

No inconsistencies as far as I can see. Everything looks fine.

Regarding quality...this is the most beautiful blade I have i my collection and I have many.

Attachment:
TAMEYASU_d.jpg


/Martin


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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Kokuho
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Here are a few then you should consider:

1. The right hand radical of the first kanji is completely block-like in style with all vertical and horizontal strokes, unlike either reference example shown, which both have an angular element to the vertical strokes. The spacing between the strokes is elongated slightly as well.

2. The dot at the top of the kami kanji is vertical in the reference mei, horizontal in yours.

3. There are several directional inconsistencies in the tame kanji.

I am not saying yours is gimei, just that the signature is not spot on.

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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:43 pm 
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Jo Jo Saku

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Hi,

All the oshigatas have the mei very close to the nakago mune.

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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Sai Jo Saku

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I have no idea if it's shoshin or not, but the style of choji hamon on your sword doesn't look quite like any Ishido work I've seen. The nakago and mei look pretty close to me when considering the variance in the documented swords - although I do see the points Chris is making. What's the suguta like?

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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Jo Jo Saku
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I understand all the points and point taken.

If we think at bit and picture us my specimen without signature.

Then we read some books and facts about school, yasurimei, butt-cut, shape of nakago, hamon, yakidashi and so on. It matches and would be attributed to TAMEYASU. See kantei below.

I often hear "The sword identifies/confirms the MEI and not the other way around".

I can also see why it can be doubted when looking at the other characters like the TACHIBANA on the sword to the left. Completely different, but looking at what I regard as match, we see a match. I do, perhaps because I want to see a match. Anyway, I know it is legit and I will not give up without a fight.


"Shijo Kantei No 645 (October issue)

Answer and Discussion for Shijo Kantei To

645 ( in the October issue). The answer is a katana by Bitchu no kami Tachibana Yasuhiro


This sword has midare utsuri, and a gorgeous choji hamon, but the shape is as seen, and the shinogi ji has masame hada, and the boshi is komaru. From these characteristics, this is not an old Bizen katana, like Ichimonji, and it is more likely to be a Shinto period Ishido school katana. The modern Ishido school had branches in Edo, Kyoto, Osaka, Kishu, and Fukuoka, and each branch school had an original style and produced well made blades. Among these schools, a long yakidashi at the koshimoto is an important characteristic for the Kishu Ishido school. This hamon at the koshimoto shows a slight midare pattern which is different from usual pattern, but if this part were suguha, it would be a typical Kishu Ishido yakidashi. the Kishu Ishido school’s yakidashi yakihaba (width) are not an even suguha, and towards the upper part of the yakidashi section, the width becomes wider, and this katana shows this feature. Also, the Kishu Ishido school choji midare hamon have a wide hamon, as seen on this katana, and often the top of the hamon reaches the shinogisuji. At the same time, each choji is narrow, and entire hamon is smaller, and has a tight nioiguchi, and the hints mentioned these characteristics. The Kishu Ishido boshi are straight with a komaru, or are midarekomi, and often have a long return, like on this katana. They can often have frequent muneyaki. Among the Kishu Ishido smiths, Yasuhiro has more work left today. His nakago tips are iriyamagata, and on the ura under the habaki there is a mon, and from these characteristics, the Bitchu-no-kami Yasuhiro nameis suggested. Most of the people voted for Yasuhiro, and besides his name, a few people voted for Tosa Shogen Tameyasu and Mutsu-no-kami Tameyasu who are also Kishu Ishido school smiths. These smiths made choji midare hamon, and it is difficult to judge distinctively between their styles. In particular, Tosa Shogen Tameyasu has katana with mon on the omote side, so these names are treated as almost correct answers. Tosa Shogen Tameyasu has very few blades, and Mutsu-no-kami Tameyasu’s nakago jiri are kurijiri. Beside these, a few people voted for Unju Korekazu. As a Shinshinto smith, his mihaba are normal or slightly wide, and his kissaki are chu-kissaki or long chu-kissaki, which are common shapes. A choji midare hamon is his strong point, and a few blades have an Aoe-mon; so from these characteristics, people may have voted for him. Korekazu’s shapes are wide but his work show a thick kasane, and many of them have a narrow shinogi-haba which often are seen in Shinshinto blades; his jitetsu is a tight ko-itame and can become a become muji-hada type, and are often mixed with nagare hada. His early choji hamon, have narrow clusters, and tops are not round; there is a tight and strong nioiguchi, similar to Chounsai Tsunatoshi and Koyama Munetsugu. Usually his choji in each cluster are thick, the tops are large and round, and more likely to be similar to gunome midare hamon. There are dense nioi, dense nie, and frequent kinsuji and sunagashi. In addition, Korekazu has very few Aoi-mon blades, so please pay attention to these details.



Explanation and provided by Hinohara Dai."


/Martin


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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Jo Jo Saku
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runagmc wrote:
I have no idea if it's shoshin or not, but the style of choji hamon on your sword doesn't look quite like any Ishido work I've seen. The nakago and mei look pretty close to me when considering the variance in the documented swords - although I do see the points Chris is making. What's the suguta like?


Adam,

They are famous for copying works of Ichimonji School.

Sugata is as expected, Bizen style and sori 1.8 and 71.3 Ha

Not the run of the mill Kanbun, because this is a copy cat work from Bizen.

/Martin


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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:45 pm 
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Martin,
Interesting discussion, and glad to see that are still open minded about it, and haven't failed it yet. I guess they are admitting that some things match, but there are inconsistencies and they need more research. This is what we are seeign too. Yes, the work has to confirm the mei..but what if the work matches, but the mei doesn't? They need to decide if gimei or shoshin, and who signed it.
There are some good matches here. But there are also strokes that aren't.
For example, look at the direction these strokes are going in...that is something they will have noted. It matches on the mei that has little else in common...but not with the mei where the rest matches. Things they obviously need to think about.
Lovely sword though!

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:01 pm 
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Jo Jo Saku
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Thank you Brian.
I'm hoping to get a high res of IMG_1055 from Chris so that I can send it to NBTHK. This one will work and the will have the book at NBTHK, but good to show them the differences between this one and the left one in the same picture (which I think they have seen and the only one).

There is a special session set up tomorrow, where I can present the "evidence" at hand.

Not that it matters, but the sword had #11 as a Torokusho which indicates ownership status in the past. I own it now and it has #73502...hmm I should perhaps not have said that ( : well, proud owner!

/Martin


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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Sai Jo Saku

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Location: Northern Minnesota, USA
Hi Martin,
I think it was from me you wanted the picture of the oshigata in Nihonto Zuikan. If so, please send me an email and I'll reply with a high resolution photo attached. Make sure I know which oshigata, right or left, you want.
Grey gdoffin@cpinternet.com


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 Post subject: Re: OSHIGATA REQUEST - TAMEYASU
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Jo Jo Saku
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Grey,

My bad and I'm sorry.

Email sent.

Thank you.

/Martin


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