cabowen Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Someone sent me this the other day....This sword is a WWII blade as evidenced by the date. Made by Miyairi Akihira. The blade was sent to Japan for kantei-sho at the NBTHK, which it received. A copy is below. Further proof that star stamped blades have been judged as Nihon-to and have passed NBTHK shinsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thank you for posting that Chris. Although I have seen RJT made blades papered, they had no star visible...I always suspected that the star had been professionally removed...a big mistake both ethically and historically IMHO, this is the first I have seen that actually shows the star stamp. Very interesting. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Klein Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/showato.htm I looked this up as I am not a student of this area and found it enlightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k morita Posted January 19, 2013 Report Share Posted January 19, 2013 Chris san, Thank you for sharing of the picture. I also saw for the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 Hi Chris B., Thanks for the post and photo. I remember being told this but I have never seen or owned an example. Yours truly, David Stiles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zentsuji2 Posted January 22, 2013 Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 :clap:Thanks chris ,puts a lot of arguements and disbelievers to a final closure,and gives hope to owners of star stamps if they feel their blades are worthy of shinsa.sincerely.ianb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2013 You are all most welcome thought the proper thanks goes to Jacques as I wouldn't have posted this without his request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Thanks Chris I hope the debate regarding star stamped swords as genuine nihonto or not will finally be over now. But somehow I doudt it. I guess according to some people the moon landing didn't happen except for the time when Elvis left earth in a rocket and settled on the moon. Best Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Thanks ChrisI hope the debate regarding star stamped swords as genuine nihonto or not will finally be over now. But somehow I doudt it. I guess according to some people the moon landing didn't happen except for the time when Elvis left earth in a rocket and settled on the moon. Best Daniel There will always be those that steadfastly cling to their falsehoods or fail to acknowledge their errors no matter the evidence because they are simply too small to admit they are wrong. We can't fix personality flaws, only misconceptions.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 27, 2013 Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Hi, Mister cabowen If you call that paper a proof, I don't, i can provide you thousand of this kind of photocopy. That i want to see is an original. Something is strange, the star is not mentionned on the paper or usually all that is inscribed on a nakago should be mentionned on origami (kao included). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2013 Hi, Mister cabowen If you call that paper a proof, I don't, i can provide you thousand of this kind of photocopy. That i want to see is an original. Something is strange, the star is not mentionned on the paper or usually all that is inscribed on a nakago should be mentionned on origami (kao included). Of course it isn't good enough for you. The sword belonged to the President of the NBTHK-US branch, Mr. Paul Davidson who had it polished and papered. This kantei-sho and an article about the sword were published in an article by Mr. Arnold Frenzel, a long time Director of the JSS-US, in the JSS-US Newsletter (volume 27, no. 4, July/Aug 1995). You can view the printed copy of the original in the Newsletter cited above. Both of these gentleman are above reproach with no reason to attempt any subterfuge. There is nothing wrong with the kantei-sho. The number is clearly visible in the upper right hand corner. If you think it is fake or altered, please prove it. With the number, you can always call the NBTHK and ask them. It may seem strange to you, but that is hardly proof it is not legitimate. Personally, I think the calligraphy is atrocious but it isn't the first time I have seen that.... Really Jacques, you bring to mind the Black Knight....Your inability to graciously admit the obvious is actually becoming painful to watch.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Hi, Mister Bowen, I'm sorry but i don't trust you. May i ask how old you are ? you can always call the NBTHK and ask them As i'm not a member i know i will not got an answer, if i were one, there is a long time i did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Age/knowledge/wiseness having nothing to do with age, this long discussion could be settled between you two guys, with this question: What are, for both of you, your experience and credential in Nihonto field and in Gendaito, WWII Nihonto? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george trotter Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Jean san, I respectfully disagree with your comment. This has nothing to do with justification of expertise in gendaito etc IMHO, In this case it is a matter of the simple rules of logical discussion between scholars. Jacques said he "must be shown" a NTHK paper for a star stamped sword before he would believe a star stamped sword was a gendaito. Chris bowen provided that paper. Now Jacques must state that he accepts the proof has been provided. If he has doubts about the paper he must state his doubts and provide his evidence. If he is accusing Chris Bowen of dishonesty he must prove it. I don't know why he wants to know how old Chris Bowen is ...he must say why. Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 George, I am just rephrasing Jacques sentence asking Chris' age, as he seems shifting competency/knowledge/experience in relaton with age, that's all. Now, I think NMB members are sufficiently adult to decide what and who they can believe in front of evidence they can easily be provided with: This kantei-sho and an article about the sword were published in an article by Mr. Arnold Frenzel, a long time Director of the JSS-US, in the JSS-US Newsletter (volume 27, no. 4, July/Aug 1995). You can view the printed copy of the original in the Newsletter cited above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NihontoEurope Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Hello, Why would not a Star stamped blade be valid for papering? Why would a traditionally made blade not be valid for use by the army? /Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John A Stuart Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 I do not see this as scholarly in any way in respect to the issue of trust. What would be the agenda of providing papers that attest to the question in hand? Is there a monetary gain or is it one-upmanship? I don't think so. Without credible evidence to prove the contrary, raising an issue of trust is disingenuous and misleading. There are ways to verify most modern documentation and if there is a belief in it's lack of credibility, prove it. Personal attacks on any one's ethics are counterproductive and have no place here. I am tempted to delete that part of an otherwise interesting discussion. Back up your assertions with credible proofs gentlemen. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NihontoEurope Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 I hope this is not deleted nor locked. I have 2 questions unanswered and follow-up questions to the answers. /Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 I mentioned I had personally submitted a star stamped Tsukamoto Okimasa blade to the NBTHK and that it received Hozon papers. Jacques did not believe that, essentially calling me a liar. I later found the sword for sale on someone's (unknown to me) web site, where the blade was described as having both a star stamp and Hozon papers. This was still not good enough for Jacques. Now he needed to see the kantei-sho. Then someone sent me an article written by a JSS-US Director (whom I have no affiliation with), published in the JSS-US Newsletter, which contained the story of a Miyairi Akihira made during the war with a star stamp. It is well known that Miyairi was a Rikugun Jumei Tosho. The blade was part of a gendaito exhibit in Chicago in the later 1990's and was owned at that time by Mr. Paul Davidson, later President of the NBTHK-US branch, who had it sent to Japan for polishing and papering. The article which illustrated the kantei-sho was published in 1995, quite some time before Jacques made his bold statement that the NBTHK would not paper a star stamped blade. Clearly it would not be possible for me to fabricate such evidence. The published kantei-sho I have provided clearly shows both a star stamp and the registration number of the kantei-sho, allowing anyone to call the NBTHK to verify the authenticity of the origami. The ball is now in Jacques' court. If this kantei-sho is indeed fraudulent, it should be easy for him to prove it. Excuses, unfounded accusations and irrelevant questions about my age add nothing towards that end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Hi, Why would not a Star stamped blade be valid for papering? If i'm not wrong, Star stamped are WWII weapons and are forbidden in Japan. If NBTHK gives paper for such swords, that makes NBTHK outlaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Hello, Why would not a Star stamped blade be valid for papering? Why would a traditionally made blade not be valid for use by the army? /Martin According to Jacques, star stamped blades are not traditionally made Nihon-to and thus the NBTHK will not paper them. There is no reason a traditionally made blade could not be used by the Army. We know many officer's carried older blades in gunto koshirae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 If i'm not wrong, Star stamped are WWII weapons and are forbidden in Japan. If NBTHK gives paper for such swords, that makes NBTHK outlaw. You clearly have never read the JuToHo, nor are you familiar with the relevant sections that define what can be licensed and admitted in Japan, or you would know why some blades made during WWII are not forbidden. It is also obvious that you have no real experience with WWII blades or you would know better....Still better, you have also never spent any time in Japan where you can handle these blades, with torokusho, any day of the week. While there have been things alleged to have happened at the NBTHK that are illegal, papering star stamped blades is not among them. Geez Jacques, you are really in over your head. Someone once said that when you find yourself in a hole, the best thing to do is to stop digging. Please, for heaven's sake, put down your shovel!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Star stamped are WWII weapons and are forbidden in Japan. No, this concerns only non traditionally made blades. A lot of family heirloom were in gunto mountings during WWII and are perfectly legal. It is not the period of fabrication which determines if it is forbidden or not but the way the swords were made: Factory/industrially/machine made: illegal, traditionally/hand made: legal/authorized. We must make the difference between art saber and simple weapon. Japanese authorities stated it before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NihontoEurope Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Ok guys, Now I will make a statement : ) Star stamped blades were only used as a mark which the army used for as an approval. Like a NATO-number used on equipment today. Both traditionally made blades and non-traditional blades would be used in the army. Those OK'ed got a stamp. Correct or incorrect statement? /Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Showa and seki stamps=non traditional Showato Star stamp=traditionally made Gendaito. Nothing new here. Period!!! Best Regards Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdiddy Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 It is hasty to say all WWII star-stamped blades are traditionally made and worthy of preservation because a few have NBTHK papers. Do WWII star-stamped blades have a 100% pass rate with NBTHK? How many WWII star-stamped blades have been submitted and rejected? For those rejected, what were the reasons? Do they align with Jacques concerns or different reasons? We need these answers before we can conclusively say that all WWII star-stamped blades are traditionally made and worthy of preservation. Is it expecting too much that the most learned about WWII star-stamped blades would have these statistics and be willing to share? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcfarrar Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 Matt, All star stamped swords were traditionally forged from tamahagane and water tempered. The original document detailing the regulations (that were strictly enforced) has been posted on this forum before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 28, 2013 Report Share Posted January 28, 2013 One step forwards...2 steps back. This has been amply covered before. Please search the forum and read the docs. Star stamp = RJT = carefully controlled standards for Gendaito = water quenched from tamahagane. All should get origami if submitted under todays enlightened info. I do not wish to go down this same old tired road again. Read what we have already written. This one is done. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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